Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate SNS Reeal in diretta: storia di un esproprio - Notizie, informazioni e commenti (10 lettori)

Quante SNS T1 + Lt2 Nominale Sub oggetto del furto avete in portafoglio

  • 10k

    Votes: 19 12,8%
  • 20k

    Votes: 8 5,4%
  • 30k

    Votes: 3 2,0%
  • 50k

    Votes: 39 26,2%
  • 75k

    Votes: 6 4,0%
  • 100k

    Votes: 18 12,1%
  • 150k

    Votes: 17 11,4%
  • 200k

    Votes: 13 8,7%
  • 300k

    Votes: 17 11,4%
  • 500k+

    Votes: 9 6,0%

  • Total voters
    149

Topgun1976

Guest
regulatory capital

Rompo le scatole per l'ultima volta, poi basta....se continuo a leggere la lettera di mister D mi viene un travaso di bile.
Il nostro ineffabile dice che è costretto all'esproprio dei PCIII perchè parte del regulatory capital. Ovviamente tale informazione viene da DBN. Leggete ora, dal sito di SNS le motivazioni della redempiton dei PCII un mese fa:
"De Nederlandsche Bank has informed SNS Bank on 4 December 2012 that, in its opinion, the outstanding SNS Participation Certificates are no longer part of any form of regulatory capital."
Repentino cambio di idea ?........

Diciamola tutta. I PC sono in mano a clienti olandesi di sns e devono essere salvaguardati (scambiavano solo sul mercatino interno di SNS), mentre gli obbligazonisti lo sono in parte numericamente inferiore malgrado titolari a volte di seniority superiore (LT2)

Tral'altro non ho trovato nulla su SRLEV. l'argomento non viene toccato. Poichè immagino i motivi (probabilmente validi per carità) che hanno optato a non espropriare i sub di SRLEV, comuque sarebbe opportuno farglieli esplicitare in quanto, esendo stato espropriato l'intero gruppo, dei sub sono sotto schiaffo ed altri no. Tra l'altro, sempre i famosi aiuti di stato, non servivano solo alla banca ma anche ad alzare a 200% il m.s.di SRLEV per tali aiuti andavao a servizio, come le garanzie fornite dalla capogruppo, anche per la società assicurativa. Il reale peso dell'intervento pubblico andrebbe ricalibrato in quanto anche ad uso e consumo di SRLEV, che non ha subito esproprio.

Or mi fermo se no mi incavolo. Palla agli avvocati ed in bocca al lupo (p.s. già liquidato tutti i sub olandesi e cd olandesi. mai più un loro prodotto finaniario. Se devo smenarci soldi preferisco ad uso e consumo della stabilità del mio paese e non del loro !!!!)

Ottimo intervento,cè tutto scritto nella lettera alla camera di dj,colgo l'occasione per dire che tutti dovrebbero leggerla,ci sono cose molto interessanti.La più grave secondo me ,è che il mercato non conosceva l'ultimatum di gio31 ore 18.00
 

maxinblack

Forumer storico
Non riesco a eliminare il doppio testo da leggere nella parte finale sulle conclusioni


vielleicht interessant, aktueller Kommentar von knight capital:​
perhaps interesting, current comment from Knight Capital:

· SNS nationalisation expropriates sub debt holders at the Holding and Bank entity · Insurance sub debt was left intact, but there is a risk of temporary coupon deferrals, which could be imposed by the EU Competition Commission · Zero value of HoldCo sub debt seems to be an excessively harsh assessment given the insurance group was left outside the scope of the expropriation and some compensation might therefore be due.​
· SNS nation mondialisation expropriates sub debt holders at the holding company and bank entity · Insurance sub debt was left intact, but there is a risk of temporary coupon deferrals, Which could be imposed by the EU Competition Commission · Zero value of HoldCo sub debt seems to be to excessively harsh assessment given the insurance group was left outside the scope of the expropriation and some compensation might be due Therefore.
However – this is a preliminary assessment and might involve a protracted legal battle!​
However - this is a preliminary assessment and might involve a protracted legal battle!
· Compensation claim at the bank may be harder to make, resting on the question who is legally responsible for property finance losses.​
· Compensation claim at the bank may be harder to make, resting on the question who is legally responsible for property finance losses.


In a somewhat surprising and drastic action SNS REAAL was nationalised by the Dutch government on 1 February 2013.​
In a somewhat surprising and drastic action SNS REAAL what nationalised by the Dutch government on 1 February 2013th
This followed months of attempts to find fresh capital for the group to allow it to deal with the high and growing loss content of its ill-fated property finance portfolio.​
This followed months of attempts to find fresh capital for the group to allow it to deal with the high and growing loss content of its ill-fated property finance portfolio.
Once private initiatives failed or were found inadequate the government decided to take over the group in order to avoid a collapse and prevent greater damage for the Dutch financial system and economy.​
Once private initiatives failed or were found inadequate the government decided to take over the group in order to avoid a collapse and prevent greater damage for the Dutch financial system and economy.

The takeover was effected by a decree by the Minister of Finance, which expropriated the capital and all subordinated debt instruments of the group holding SNS REAAL NV as well as the OpCo bank SNS Bank NV.​
The takeover was Effected by a decree by the Minister of Finance, Which expropriated all the capital and subordinated debt instruments of the group holding SNS REAAL NV as well as the OpCo Bank SNS Bank NV.
Subordinated debt instruments of the group insurance companies (REAAL / SRLEV) on the other hand were left untouched and continue to trade in the market.​
Subordinated debt instruments of the group insurance companies (REAAL / SRLEV) on the other hand were left untouched and continue to trade in the market.

The transfer of the nationalised instruments to the state took place as of 8.30am on 1 February 2013 and since then trading in these securities is no longer possible.​
The transfer of the nationalised instruments to the state as of 8.30am took place on 1 February 2013 and since then trading in these securities is no longer possible.
However, there will be a determination of compensation for these instruments (proposed by the government to be zero – see further comments below).​
However, there will be a determination of compensation for these instruments (proposed by the government to be zero - see further comments below).
It should be possible to trade the resulting claims on a bilateral contract basis.​
It should be possible to trade the resulting claims on a bilateral contract basis.
Nationalised equity and debt instruments include the following:​
Nationalised equity and debt instruments include the following:

Instrument Amount ISIN​
Instrument Amount ISIN
Ordinary shares of SNS REAAL NV 287.6m shares NL0000390706​
Ordinary shares of SNS REAAL NV 287.6m shares NL0000390706
6 B-shares​
6 B-shares
Other share capital of SNS REAAL NV​
Other share capital of SNS REAAL NV
Other share capital of SNS Bank NV​
Other share capital of SNS Bank NV
Stichting Core Tier 1 securities 4.35m securities​
Stichting core Tier 1 securities 4.35m securities

SNS Reaal 6.258 perp €250m XS0310904155​
SNS Reaal 6258 perp € 250m XS0310904155
SNS Reaal 8.45 dated sub $100mn XS0382843802​
SNS Reaal 8:45 dated sub $ 100mn XS0382843802
SNS Bank 11.25 perp (Tier 1) €320mn XS0468954523​
SNS Bank 11.25 perp (Tier 1) XS0468954523 € 320mn
SNS Bank 5.75 perp (Tier 1) €10.95mn XS0172565482​
SNS Bank 5.75 perp (Tier 1) XS0172565482 € 10.95mn
SNS Bank 6.25 dated sub (LT2) €262.342mn XS0552743048​
SNS Bank dated sub 6:25 (LT2) € 262.342mn XS0552743048
SNS Bank 6.625 dated sub (LT2) €40.7mn XS0363514893​
SNS Bank dated 6625 sub (LT2) XS0363514893 € 40.7mn
Various other instruments Small​
Various other instruments Small
Source: Decree by the Minister of Finance, 1 Feb 2013​
Source: Decree by the Minister of Finance, February 1, 2013

The insurance franchise (REAAL NV and subsidiaries such as SRLEV) on the other hand was left unaffected.​
The insurance franchise (REAAL NV and subsidiaries as SRLEV search) on the otherhand was left unaffected.
While ownership was transferred to the government as well (indirectly through the nationalisation of the group HoldCo SNS REAAL NV), the nationalisation decree and explanatory letter does not mention any significant impairment of the insurance group and it left the insurance sub debt instruments outside the scope of the nationalisation.​
While ownership was Transferred to the government as well (Indirectly through the nation mondialisation of the group HoldCo SNS REAAL NV), the nation mondialisation decree and explanatory letter does not mention any significant impairment of the insurance group and it left the insurance sub debt instruments outside the scope of the nation mondialisation.

Having said that, coupon payments of the SRLEV sub bonds can be deferred at the discretion of management.​
Having said that, coupon payments of the bonds can be sub SRLEV deferred at the discretion of management.
Even though both bonds (the 9% and the 7% perp) have cumulative deferral language which limits the economic loss of any deferral, the government or indeed the EU Commission in its review of the group takeover might nevertheless demand a deferral of coupons at least for some time.​
Even though both bonds (the 9% and the 7% perp) have cumulative deferral language Which limits the economic loss of any deferral, the government or indeed the EU Commission in its review of the group takeover might Nevertheless demand a deferral of coupons at least for some time.
Bond prices could fall considerably if such a coupon deferral was implemented, suggesting that the bonds might not be quite as “cheap” as they appear under the assumption that coupons continue to get paid.​
Bond prices could drop Considerably if such a coupon deferral was implemented, suggesting that the bonds might not be quite as "cheap" as they appear under the assumption that coupons continue to get paid.


COMPENSATION COULD BE DUE FOR HOLDCO DEBT Legally the nationalisation of SNS Reaal was enforced under the Dutch Intervention Act with the decision taken by the Minister of Finance in agreement with the Prime Minister and in consultation with De Nederlandsche Bank.​
COMPENSATION COULD BE DUE FOR DEBT Legally HOLDCO the nation mondialisation of SNS Reaal was enforced under the Dutch Act intervention with the decision taken by the Minister of Finance in agreement with the Prime Minister and in consultation with De Nederlandsche Bank.
This, together with the stated systemic importance of SNS Reaal for the Dutch financial system seems to meet the legal requirements for the nationalisation under the law.​
This, together with the stated importance of systemic SNS Reaal for the Dutch financial system seems to meet the legal requirements for the nation mondialisation under the law.
The explanatory letter of the Dutch Ministry of Finance indicates that without additional capital SNS would have been unable to publish accounts on a going concern basis and that indeed SNS was facing bankruptcy.​
The explanatory letter of the Dutch Ministry of Finance INDICATES that without additional capital SNS would have been unable to publish accounts on a going concern basis and that indeed what SNS facing bankruptcy.

The direct costs of the rescue to the Dutch government are €3.7bn, broken down as follows:​
The direct costs of the rescue to the Dutch government are € 3.7bn, broken down as follows:
· €1.9bn new capital for SNS Bank NV​
· € 1.9bn new capital for SNS Bank NV
· €0.3bn new capital for SNS Reaal NV​
· € 0.3bn new capital for SNS Reaal NV
· €0.7bn to capitalise and isolate the real estate portfolio · €0.8bn to write off earlier aid (although the €0.8bn seems to include the 50% mark-up at repayment, while the nominal amount of this was €565mn at the last reporting date; in any case these were deeply subordinated core tier 1 securities) · Additionally the government will guarantee €5bn of funding for the real estate portfolio of SNS, which is to be separated from the group (initially this funding will be provided by SNS Bank).​
· € 0.7bn to capitalize and isolate the real estate portfolio · € 0.8bn to write off earlier aid (although the € 0.8bn seems to include the 50% mark-up at repayment, while the nominal amount of this was € 565mn at the load reporting date, by in any case these were deeply subordinated core Tier 1 securities) · Additionally the government wants to guarantee € 5bn of funding for the real estate portfolio of SNS, Which is to be separated from the group (Initially this funding is pre- SNS Bank).
· Lastly the government will provide the holding company a bridging loan of €1.1bn to enable the holding to repay senior debt as well as inter-group loans.​
· Lastly the government wants to provide all company holding a bridging loan of € 1.1bn to enable the holding to repay senior debt as well as inter-group loans.
The bridging loan is meant to be repaid after the sale of the insurance companies or from independently raised finds of SNS Reaal NV.​
The bridging loan is meant to be repaid after the sale of the insurance companies or from unabhängig raised finds of SNS Reaal NV.

To help pay for the rescue of SNS the government believes that the value of all sub debt of the group is zero and it will make an official offer to this effect through the Enterprise Division of the Amsterdam Court of Appeal.​
To help pay for the rescue of the government SNS Believes that the value of all sub debt of the group is zero and it wants to make. Official to offer to this effect through the Enterprise Division of the Amsterdam Court of Appeal
Investors who object to the offer also need to seek recourse to the same Court.​
Investors who object to the offer also need to seek recourse to the same Court


THE FOLLOWING ARE SOME PRELIMIRARY CONSIDERATIONS OF THE EXPROPRIATION AND POTENTIAL FOR COMPENSATION CLAIMS.​
THE FOLLOWING ARE SOME OF THE CONSIDERATIONS PRELIMIRARY expropriation AND POTENTIAL FOR COMPENSATION CLAIMS.
ACTION WOULD REQUIRE GETTING INVOLVED IN A PROTRACTED LEGAL BATTLE IN THE NETHERLANDS​
ACTION WOULD REQUIRE GETTING INVOLVED IN A protracted LEGAL BATTLE IN THE NETHERLANDS

While fighting the government will likely be an uphill battle, the government's actions seem unduly harsh and there may be reasons why its claim of zero value of all sub debt in the HoldCo and Bank entities is exaggerated.​
While fighting the government will likely be an uphill battle, the government's actions seem unduly harsh and there may be reasons why its claim of zero value of all sub debt in the HoldCo and banking entities is exaggerated.
While the government clearly has an interest to restore the financial position of the entities to a situation where they once again meet regulatory capital requirements, the expropriation of instruments which are backed by a positive net asset value would suggest that some positive compensation should be due.​
While the government clearly has. At interest to restore the financial position of the entities to a situation where they once again meet regulatory capital requirements, the expropriation of instruments Which are backed by a positive net asset value would suggest that some positive compensation should be due
In particular the situation at the HoldCo may warrant closer inspection:​
In Particular the situation at the HoldCo may warrant closer inspection:

The last published financial figures for the Holding company SNS REAAL NV show the following situation:​
The last published financial figures for the Holding company SNS REAAL NV show the following situation:
Total assets were 7,124mn, breaking down into the following:​
Total assets were 7.124 mn, breaking down into the following:
€1,879mn equity investment SNS Bank NV​
€ 1.879 mn equity investment SNS Bank NV
€4,356mn equity investment REAAL NV​
€ 4.356 mn equity investment REAAL NV
€655mn receivables from subsidiaries​
€ 655mn receivables from Subsidiaries
€234mn other assets​
€ 234mn other assets

Stress testing the assets would mean the value of the Bank investment is zero, while on the other hand the government's actions give no indication that the investment in the insurance group is impaired (indeed capital and sub debt at the insurance companies were left untouched).​
Stress testing the assets would mean the value of the bank investment is zero, while on the other hand the government's actions give no indication that the investment in the insurance group is impaired (indeed capital and sub debt at the insurance quotes were left untouched).
It is not clear if the receivables from subsidiaries are impaired, but one could very conservatively assume that they are all subordinated loans to the bank and therefore worthless.​
It is not clear if the receivables from Subsidiaries are impaired, but one could very conservatively assume that they are all subordinated loans to the bank and Therefore worthless.
Other assets could be stress tested as well and eg a two-thirds haircut applied.​
Other assets could be stress tested as well and eg a two-thirds haircut applied.
On this basis, despite a complete loss of investments in the bank the Holding would still have assets of €4.434mn and a loss of €2,690mn.​
On this basis, despite a complete loss of the investments in the bank holding company would have assets of € 4.434mn quiet and a loss of € 2.690 mn.

On the liability side of the balance sheet were the following main items:​
On the liability side of the balance sheet were the following main items:
€4,448mn shareholders' equity​
€ 4.448 mn shareholders' equity
€979mn equity attributable to securityholders (loss absorbing core tier 1 securities issued to Stichting and core tier 1 securities held by the Dutch government) €604mn subordinated debt (€200mn of this matured during 2012) €302mn debt certificates (probably senior) €522mn amounts due to customers (€492mn of this is due to subsidiaries) €269mn other liabilities​
€ 979mn equity attribute able to security holders (loss absorbing core Tier 1 securities issued to Stichting and core tier 1 securities held by the Dutch government) € 604mn subordinated debt (€ 200mn of this matured during 2012) € 302mn debt certificates (probably senior) € 522mn amounts due to customers (€ 492mn of this is due to Subsidiaries) € 269mn other liabilities

The loss from a complete write-off of the bank equity and all receivables from subsidiaries would be covered by the equity of the Holding and it is not immediately clear why a writedown to zero of the sub debt is necessary or justified.​
The loss from a complete write-off of the bank equity and all receivables from Subsidiaries would be covered by the equity of the holding company and it is not immediately clear why a write down to zero of the sub debt Is Necessary or justified.
Rather it seems like all the sub debt is fully covered by assets.​
Rather it seems like all the sub debt is fully covered by assets.
One argument for additional haircuts is that the government will provide a bridging loan of €1.1bn to repay other debt, but this is replacing other debt and any reasonably applied costs for this would need to be compared to the cost of existing debt.​
One argument for additional haircuts is that the government wants Ooops a bridging loan of € 1.1bn to repay other debt, but this is replacing other debt and any costs reasonably applied for this would need to be Compared to the cost of existing debt.

Additionally, and potentially more importantly however, SNS Reaal NV guarantees various subsidiaries, including the bank as well as the property finance portfolio, on the basis of Book 2, section 403 of the Dutch Civil Code, which requires that it is jointly and severally liable for debts of these subsidiaries.​
Additionally, and potentially more importantly however, SNS Reaal NV Guarantees various Subsidiaries, including the bank as well as the property finance portfolio, on the basis of Book 2, section 403 of the Dutch Civil Code, Which requires that it is jointly and severally liable for debts of these subsidiaries.
Losses of the subsidiaries, including the property finance portfolio, are basically reflected in the negative NAV of the bank, so this loss could arguably also accrue to the holding.​
Losses of the Subsidiaries, including the property finance portfolio, are basically reflected in the negative NAV of the bank, then this loss could arguably therefore accrue to the holding.
Adding therefore this entity's €1.84bn stated capital shortfall adds up to a loss of €4,530mn for the HoldCo, which uses up shareholders' equity and would start to eat into the hybrid instruments (presumably the Stichting's loss absorbing core tier 1 securities).​
Adding Therefore this entity's € 1.84bn stated capital shortfall adds up to a loss of € 4.530 mn for the HoldCo, Which uses up shareholders' equity and would start to eat into the hybrid instruments (presumably the Stichting's loss absorbing core Tier 1 securities).
However, even adding the negative bank NAV still would still not impair the HoldCo sub debt.​
However, even adding the negative banking NAV breastfeeding would still not impair the HoldCo sub debt.
This view also seems consistent with the government's own assessment of a necessary capital injection at the HoldCo of only €300mn to restore its regulatory capital position.​
This view therefore seems consistent with the government's own assessment of A Necessary capital injection at the HoldCo of only € 300mn to restore its regulatory capital position.

Maybe the Court deciding or reviewing compensation will apply different valuation parameters – eg a gone concern / fire sale valuation or valuation based on some (so far unspecified) parameters based on government support almost certainly would result in higher losses (as it would probably in any bank on the planet).​
Maybe the Court deciding or reviewing compensation will apply different valuation parameters - eg a gone concern / firesale valuation or valuation based on some (so far unspecified) parameters based on government support would almost certainly result in higher losses (as it probably would in any bank on the planet).
However, based on the last available accounting information and the explanatory letter from the Dutch government it seems there could be a case for at least some compensation for the HoldCo sub debt, based on the outline above.​
However, based on the last available accounting information and the explanatory letter from the Dutch government it seems there could be a case for at least some compensation for the HoldCo sub debt, based on the outline above.

While economically there seems to be a case why the HoldCo might even have been left outside the nationalisation scope, the government provides another reason for its nationalisation, which is that the HoldCo and bank are so closely intertwined that SNS Bank would be unable to function properly without the holding.​
While Economically there seems to be a case why the HoldCo might even have been left outside the nation mondialisation scope, the government provides another reason for its nation mondialisation, Which is that the HoldCo and bank are so closely intertwined that SNS Bank would be unable to function properly without the holding.
Group functions of crucial importance to the continuity of the bank (risk management, treasury, IT, and personnel) were fulfilled by the holding.​
Group functions of crucial importance, to the continuity of the bank (risk management, treasury, IT, and personnel) were fulfilled by the holding.

However, it seems to be a comparatively weak argument to conclude that this interconnectedness justifies the expropriation of bondholders at the HoldCo.​
However, it seems to be a Comparatively weak argument to conclude that this interconnectedness justifies the expropriation of bond holders at the HoldCo.
One would expect that the services provided to the bank by the holding were covered by arms' length compensation arrangements and even if these were missing they probably could be put in place without too much trouble.​
One would expect that the services provided to the bank by the holding were covered by arms' length compensation arrangements and even if these were missing they probably could be put in place without too much trouble.
Justifying the expropriation of bondholders on this basis, however, could be a stretch.​
Justifying the expropriation of bond holders on this basis however, could be a stretch.

A further argument given by the government for the HoldCo nationalisation is that a potential failure of the Holding might cause a shock effect that would cause confidence in other Dutch institutions to be compromised.​
A further argument given by the government for the nation HoldCo mondialisation is that a potential failure of the holding might cause a shock effect that would cause confidence in other Dutch institutions to be compromised.
While that may be so, this argument would normally justify state aid for the struggling entity (economically this is an external effect of SNS's struggles), not the expropriation of its investors.​
While that may be so, this argument would normally justify state aid for the struggling entity (Economically this is an external effect of SNS's struggles), not the expropriation of its investors.


COMPENSATION FOR DABNK DEBT HARDER TO JUSTIFY At the bank the case for compensation is harder to make and it looks plausible that investors might indeed not have any reasonable claim.​
COMPENSATION FOR DEBT DABNK HARDER TO JUSTIFY At the bank the case for compensation is harder to make and it looks plausible that investors might indeed not have any reasonable claim.
The Dutch government reports that based on a DNB review the bank was found to have negative equity of €1.84 billion, due to losses from the real estate portfolio (and potentially further losses in the SME and retail operations).​
The Dutch government reports that based on a review the bank DNB was found to have negative equity of € 1.84 billion, due to losses from the real estate portfolio (and potentially further losses in the SME and retail operations).
Therefore, the equity capital can be seen to be worthless and additionally €1.84bn of negative net worth needs to be apportioned to debt, easily exceeding the sub debt at the bank and therefore leaving it worthless.​
Therefore, the equity capital can be seen to be worthless and € 1.84bn Additionally of negative net worth needs to be apportioned to debt, easily exceeding the sub debt at the bank and Therefore leaving it worthless.

However, it is not entirely clear why the losses of the property finance portfolio, legally a subsidiary of the bank but benefiting from a HoldCo guarantee (see above) are entirely allocated to the economic situation of the bank. A positive NAV would potentially argue for sub debt compensation if the losses are legally the responsibility of SNS Reaal NV rather than the bank.​
However, it is not entirely clear why the losses of the property finance portfolio, legally a subsidiary of the bank but benefiting from a HoldCo guarantee (see above) are allocated entirely to the economic situation of the bank A positive NAV would potentially argue for sub debt compensation if the losses are legally the responsibility of SNS Reaal NV rather than the bank
 
Ultima modifica:

reef

...
Cds

Sembra che la vicenda SNS apra un nuovo scenario anche sul pagamento dei CDS.
Il 1 febbraio è avvenuto un credit event o no? Quindi i CDS vanno pagati? Su che sottostante, visto che i bond sono sequestrati e non esistono più?
Quel che avverrà in questo nuovissimo scenario condizionerà anche il comportamento delle coperture tramite CDS, benchè SNS nel mercato dei CDS abbia un valore irrisorio.

Il post di riferimento è di paologorgo, che grassetta diversi punti critici SNS Bank Thread Unificato aggiornamenti ed informazioni - Pagina 98 - Forum di Finanzaonline.com e post successivo.

Mi preme riportare alcuni passaggi.

The nationalisation of SNS Reaal looks set to test the robustness of the process for determining payouts on credit default swap protection, after the International Swaps and Derivatives Association Determinations Committee accepted a credit event question last Monday.

While this should be a clear-cut CDS trigger once the bondholders have been wiped out, there is a danger that inherent flaws in the restructuring credit event could lead to CDS holders not receiving appropriate payouts on the protection they have bought.
“Based on the information available, the CDS should not have triggered at this point in time. All that has happened is the sub debt has been expropriated and there has been a non-binding announcement that it will be converted into equity,” said one London-based derivatives lawyer.
As and when the debt is written down the CDS should trigger. The problem with that is that the bond won’t then exist, meaning it won’t be deliverable into a CDS auction.”


Alla fine del post successivo
The nationalisation of SNS REAAL raises awkward questions as to the efficacy of standard CDS protection. Is this another challenge for ISDA and the market to resolve?

Leggetelo... ;)
 
Ultima modifica:

claudioborghi

Twitter: @borghi_claudio
poiché mi è capitato di apprezzare alcuni tuoi interventi su stampa e tv nazionali, vorrei chiederti se ritieni di poter trattare il caso SNS, eventualmente con le sue implicazioni per il sistema bancario olandese (es. conto arancio, …), in qualcuno di questi tuoi prossimi interventi.

E' ovvio che ne parlerò appena posso... ho anche già mandato un articolo al giornale ma per ora nicchiano, spero non sia che come tutti pensano sia una cosetta che riguarda due speculatori...
 

claudioborghi

Twitter: @borghi_claudio
ciao Claudio,
purtroppo nel merito molti di noi nel chiedere l'attestato hanno anche addotto le motivazioni.... a telefono .... o con mail.... come da loro richiesto .....

Con permesso, quello che facciamo noi sono mazzi nostri, occorre una comunicazione in senso inverso, è la banca che ti deve informare. Infatti ho avuto notizia di un intermediario che una volta informato da uno di noi :rolleyes: si è (giustamente) affrettato con i capelli ritti a far richiamare il cliente dal legal per "informarlo". Per questo dicevo di non diffidare la banca, aspettare e mettere in mora :)
 
Ultima modifica:

Cat XL

Shizuka Minamoto
Sembra che la vicenda SNS apra un nuovo scenario anche sul pagamento dei CDS.
Il 1 febbraio è avvenuto un credit event o no? Quindi i CDS vanno pagati? Su che sottostante, visto che i bond sono sequestrati e non esistono più?
Quel che avverrà in questo nuovissimo scenario condizionerà anche il comportamento delle coperture tramite CDS, benchè SNS nel mercato dei CDS abbia un valore irrisorio.

Il post di riferimento è di paologorgo, che grassetta diversi punti critici SNS Bank Thread Unificato aggiornamenti ed informazioni - Pagina 98 - Forum di Finanzaonline.com e post successivo.

Mi preme riportare alcuni passaggi.

The nationalisation of SNS Reaal looks set to test the robustness of the process for determining payouts on credit default swap protection, after the International Swaps and Derivatives Association Determinations Committee accepted a credit event question last Monday.

While this should be a clear-cut CDS trigger once the bondholders have been wiped out, there is a danger that inherent flaws in the restructuring credit event could lead to CDS holders not receiving appropriate payouts on the protection they have bought.
“Based on the information available, the CDS should not have triggered at this point in time. All that has happened is the sub debt has been expropriated and there has been a non-binding announcement that it will be converted into equity,” said one London-based derivatives lawyer.
As and when the debt is written down the CDS should trigger. The problem with that is that the bond won’t then exist, meaning it won’t be deliverable into a CDS auction.”


Alla fine del post successivo
The nationalisation of SNS REAAL raises awkward questions as to the efficacy of standard CDS protection. Is this another challenge for ISDA and the market to resolve?

Leggetelo... ;)

Ormai i CDS si sono trasformati da derivati di protezione in puri derivati di speculazione. Hanno perso la loro iniziale funzione.

Da dove salta fuori questa?

the sub debt has been expropriated and there has been a non-binding announcement that it will be converted into equity
 
Ultima modifica:

wartburg_12

forumer storico
Sembra che la vicenda SNS apra un nuovo scenario anche sul pagamento dei CDS.
Il 1 febbraio è avvenuto un credit event o no? Quindi i CDS vanno pagati? Su che sottostante, visto che i bond sono sequestrati e non esistono più?
Quel che avverrà in questo nuovissimo scenario condizionerà anche il comportamento delle coperture tramite CDS, benchè SNS nel mercato dei CDS abbia un valore irrisorio.

Il post di riferimento è di paologorgo, che grassetta diversi punti critici SNS Bank Thread Unificato aggiornamenti ed informazioni - Pagina 98 - Forum di Finanzaonline.com e post successivo.

Mi preme riportare alcuni passaggi.

The nationalisation of SNS Reaal looks set to test the robustness of the process for determining payouts on credit default swap protection, after the International Swaps and Derivatives Association Determinations Committee accepted a credit event question last Monday.

While this should be a clear-cut CDS trigger once the bondholders have been wiped out, there is a danger that inherent flaws in the restructuring credit event could lead to CDS holders not receiving appropriate payouts on the protection they have bought.
“Based on the information available, the CDS should not have triggered at this point in time. All that has happened is the sub debt has been expropriated and there has been a non-binding announcement that it will be converted into equity,” said one London-based derivatives lawyer.
As and when the debt is written down the CDS should trigger. The problem with that is that the bond won’t then exist, meaning it won’t be deliverable into a CDS auction.”


Alla fine del post successivo
The nationalisation of SNS REAAL raises awkward questions as to the efficacy of standard CDS protection. Is this another challenge for ISDA and the market to resolve?

Leggetelo... ;)


Thanks v.m. !

Sono andato a dare un'occhiata e ... mi sono ricordato perchè ero venuto via da lì .... ci sono cose molto interessanti e forumisti davvero bravi MA dopo un pò che fai 'scrematura' tra messaggi ok e messaggi ko ti gira la testa ! :)

(tra l'altro, ho trovato anche questo parere :

SNS Bank Thread Unificato aggiornamenti ed informazioni - Pagina 97 - Forum di Finanzaonline.com

questa è una parte di quello che dice '89sam' :

.........
Sul resto ho già in altri messaggi esposto forti dubbi sulla costituzionalità (in Italia, in Olanda non so) di un esproprio di "diritti di credito". L'esproprio, come dice la parola stessa, riguarda la "proprietà" di un bene, non la titolarità di un "credito". E' legittimo espropriare le azioni di una Banca (sono beni di proprietà degli azionisti), mentre non è legittimo espropriare crediti verso la Banca.
Quindi con la Nazionalizzazione lo Stato subentra (ma in olanda ora occorre usare il condizionale: subentrerebbe) in tutti i rapporti contrattuali stipulati dalla Banca con i privati e ne dovrebbe onorare i debiti.

Per quel che concerne l'entità dell'indennizzo delle sub (argomento che entra in gioco solo se l'esproprio dei crediti è costituzionalmente legittimo) credo che la semplice quotazione di mercato non sarà sufficiente a sorreggere le tesi degli obbligazionisti. Serviranno parecchie perizie estimative (IMHO).

Faccio un'ultima considerazione.
La nuova legge (truffaledina) Olandese prende spunto da un indirizzo nato a livello "Europeo".
Da ora in poi, prima di acquistare o sottoscrivere alcunchè, sarà necessario verificare anche la legislazione vigente in ogni singolo Stato dell'Unione.


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